>> HELLO EVERYONE AND THANKS --WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND CO. "

.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP, PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUES A SHOOT TO KILL ORDER AGAINST IRANIAN BOATS PLACING MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WHILE AT THE SAME TIME SAYING THIS, QUOTE, NO TIME PRESSURE ON HOLDING NEW PEACE TALKS.

IS THIS CONFLICT ESCALATING OR IN A STALEMATE.

I ASKED FORMER U. S. NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL FOR IRAN NATE SWANSON.

> >> IS CUBA NEXT -- TRUMP'S NEXT TARGET?

HAS HIS OIL BLOCKADE SINCE THE COUNTRY INTO A HUMANITARIAN SPIRAL.

> >> INSIDE TRUMP'S EFFORT TO TAKE OVER THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

PROPUBLICA REPORTER JEN FIFIELD TALKS ABOUT HER CONCERNS FOR ELECTION INTEGRITY.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR AND SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW , KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

HERE'S A SHOCKING PROTECTION, THE UNITED NATIONS SAYS THAT MORE THAN 30 MILLION PEOPLE WILL FALL INTO POVERTY , EVEN IF THE IRAN WAR ENDS RIGHT NOW.

BECAUSE, OF SOARING ENERGY AND FOOD COSTS.

WHILE THE WHITE HOUSE IS STILL SENDING OUT MIXED SIGNALS ON HOW TO END THE WAR, AND EXTENDED CEASE-FIRE WHILE WAITING FOR PEACE TALKS AND A SHOT ACROSS THE BOW.

TODAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP POSTED THAT HE HAD ORDERED THE UNITED STATES NAVY TO SHOOT AND KILL ANY BOAT, LAYING MINES IN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

AS FOR NEXT STEPS IN TALKS TO RESOLVE THE WAR, THE WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY HAD THIS TO SAY.

>> PRESIDENT HAS NOT SET A FIRM DEADLINE TO RECEIVE AND IRANIAN PROPOSAL, ULTIMATELY, THE TIMELINE WILL BE DICTATED BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO, A STANDOFF, A GAME OF CHICKEN, OR IS THERE A PLAN HERE?

WHAT'S CLEAR, IS THE BIGGEST GLOBAL CRISIS OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ DID NOT EXIST BEFORE THE US AND ISRAEL WENT TO WAR AGAINST IRAN AND WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP ARGUES THE IRANIAN REGIME IS DIMINISHED, EXPERTS CLAIM A NEW, MORE HARD- LINE GENERATION OF PEOPLE ARE CALLING THE SHOTS.

OUR NEXT GUEST, NATE SWANSON IS IN SURPRISE.

HE SERVED AS THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL IRAN DIRECTOR DAYS BEFORE THE US AND ISRAEL LAUNCHED THEIR WAR.

HE WARNED THAT IRAN WOULD RESPOND EXACTLY AS IT'S DONE.

HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, NATE SWANSON.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> AND I START BY ASKING YOU BECAUSE THIS IS INTERESTING, PRESIDENT TRUMP POSTED A BUNCH OF THINGS TODAY INCLUDING WHO IS IRAN'S LEADER, THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THEIR LEADER IS, I DON'T KNOW WHO THEIR LEADER IS, I'M PARAPHRASING, BUT BASICALLY, WHO ARE WE MEANT TO BE TALKING TO?

IS THAT A FAIR CALL?

>> YES, OF COURSE IT'S A FAIR CALL, TO A DEGREE, THE SUPREME LEADER WAS THERE FOR 37 YEARS AND ALL OF THE DECISIONS RAN THROUGH HIM.

OF COURSE THERE'S GOING TO BE A POLITICAL TRANSITION.

BUT, I DON'T THINK IT MEANS IRAN CAN'T MAKE DECISIONS AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN UNIFIED THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF THIS WAR.

THAT'S THE SOLE PURPOSE WHICH IS SURVIVAL, BUT THE FACT THEY ARE HAVING DISAGREEMENTS NOW ON TACTICS, I DON'T THINK IT SHOULD BE A SURPRISE TO ANYONE.

I THINK WE HAVE A SMALL COTERIE OF PEOPLE MAKING DECISIONS.

>> THE BIG PICTURE ACTUALLY IT'S BEING REPORTED, THAT, AND WE'VE SEEN THIS, THAT, BASICALLY, INSTEAD OF EMPOWERING PEOPLE WHO MIGHT WANT TO DO OKAY, A DELCY RODRIGUEZ, IT'S THE OPPOSITE, YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY HAIR HARD- LINE GENERATION OF IRGC LEADERS WHO ARE COMING UP AND ESSENTIALLY CALLING THE SHOTS, IS THAT WHAT YOU THINK?

>> IT'S POSSIBLE, IT'S VERY POSSIBLE THEY WILL BE THIS FUTURE GENERATION OF LEADER THAT WANTS TO HAVE A NORTH KOREA IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I DON'T THINK WE NOW, I MEAN IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE THAT, WHO'S ALSO THERE, IT'S POSSIBLE WE END UP WITH A MUCH WORSE SITUATION I THINK IT'S WAY TOO SOON TO MAKE THAT.

>> WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S THROWING --THREATENING ANY MINES, WHAT IS THE MAIN ISSUE DO YOU THINK CERTAINLY THERE IS NO TRUST BETWEEN THE TWO SIDES, LET'S ASK ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU WORKED FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, YOU ARE A CAREER CIVIL SERVANT, YOU WORKED ON THIS ISSUE RIGHT UP TO THE SUMMER, AND OF COURSE, AROUND THE TIME WHEN TRUMP AND BENJAMIN NETANYAHU DID THE 12 DAY WAR, AND THERE HAD BEEN NEGOTIATIONS WITH IRAN, SO TELL ME HOW THOSE NEGOTIATIONS WERE GOING, AND WHAT IS THE EFFECT OF GOING TO WAR WHILE NEGOTIATIONS ARE ON THE WAY?

>> RIGHT, SO, LOOK, THERE'S NEVER BEEN TRUST IN U. S. AND IRAN'S RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE ENTIRETY BUT IT DEFINITELY GOT WORSE AFTER LAST JUNE.

I THINK AT LEAST THERE WAS A BELIEF WITHIN THE SYSTEM THAT BY BEING ENGAGED IN THE PROCESS SERIOUSLY, THAT THAT WOULD FORESTALL A MILITARY TACK.

NOW IRAN CAN'T MAKE THAT CONCLUSION ANYMORE AND IT'S HAPPENED TWICE.

THE TRUST WAS ALWAYS LOW BUT I DON'T THINK IT'S EVER BEEN LOWER THAN IT IS RIGHT NOW WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP IN PARTICULAR.

>> SO IRAN HAS PUT VERY CLEAR AT THE TOP OF ITS LIST OF DEMANDS, COUNTERING AMERICA'S DEMANDS, I DO A SHORTHAND SECURITY GUARANTEE, I. E. , A PLEDGE FROM ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES OR THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, NOT TO ATTACK IT EVER AGAIN.

IS THAT REASONABLE, AND IF IT DID YOU KNOW, DEMAND THAT, WHAT WOULD IT BE ASKED?

>> I THINK IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE FROM IRAN'S PERSPECTIVE, WITHOUT THAT, THEY WILL BE ATTACKED EVERY SIX MONTHS IN PERPETUITY, IT'S THE CONCEPT OF MOWING THE GRASS, THIS IS THEIR STRATEGY.

SO, I THINK THIS IS OBVIOUSLY AN IT'S IRAN'S NUMBER ONE GOAL.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THEY SORT OF ACHIEVED IT IN A WAY BY UTILIZING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, IN WAYS THAT IT'S NEVER BEEN USED BEFORE.

I DON'T THINK ANY PRESIDENT WOULD WALK INTO A CONFLICT THE WAY PRESIDENT TRUMP WALKED INTO THIS ONE, KNOWING THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANT RAMIFICATIONS.

I THINK IN SOME WAYS, THE IRONY OF THE WAR IS THAT ALTHOUGH IRAN HAS BEEN BEATEN BADLY MILITARILY, THEY'VE REESTABLISHED THE SECURITY GUARANTEE.

THAT SHOULD HELP US GET OUT OF THIS QUICKER KNOWING THIS IS IN FACT, REALITY.

>> WHAT ABOUT A PUSHBACK, ACTUALLY NOW THAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BLOCKADED THEIR PORTS, NOW THE U. S. HAS SEIZED THE INITIATIVE, AND IS SQUEEZING AN ALREADY DESPERATELY WEAK ECONOMY AND COULD LEAD TO THE KIND OF CRISIS THAT WOULD SEE THE ECONOMY TOTALLY COLLAPSE?

>> RIGHT, I MEAN, IT'S FAIR.

IT'S A GOOD POINT, AND I DON'T DISCOUNT THE PAIN THAT THEY ARE GOING TO FEEL ON THIS OVER THE LONG TERM.

I MEAN, IT'S A BIG DEAL.

BUT, I THINK ULTIMATELY IT'S A TEST OF WILLS BETWEEN THE U. S. AND IRAN.

I MEAN, THE U. S. THINKS, AND THEY THOUGHT THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE WAR, IF THEY PUT ENOUGH PRESSURE ON IRAN, THEY WOULD CAPITULATE.

IT HASN'T HAPPENED AND I'M PERSONALLY SKEPTICAL BUT I THINK IRAN'S CALCULATION IS THEY CAN ENDURE MORE PAIN THE U. S. CAN AND ULTIMATELY TRUMP WOULD BLINK.

ULTIMATELY IT'S GOING TO BE A TEST OF WILLS ON THIS.

BOTH SIDES ARE PLAYING A GAME OF CHICKEN.

>> ON THE OTHER BIG ISSUE OF COURSE, IS THE NUCLEAR ISSUE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP TALKS ABOUT NUCLEAR TEST, IT'S NOT DUST, BUT IT'S A DIFFERENT THING, APPARENTLY, IT'S 400 KILOS OF THE HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM, THEY ARE PROBABLY BURIED SOMEWHERE BECAUSE OF PREVIOUS BOMBARDMENTS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS A REASONABLE WAY OUT OF THAT?

THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL PROPOSALS, OBVIOUSLY THE U. S. ONCE IT OUT, AND EITHER THE U. S. KEEPS IT OR SOME OTHER COUNTRY KEEPS IT, THE IRANIANS DON'T WANT TO DO THAT AND THEY DON'T WANT TO DILUTE IT, AT LEAST THAT WAS A SUGGESTION, AND KEEP IT, DO YOU SEE HAVING BEEN AROUND THE TABLE , DO YOU SEE A WAY OUT OF THAT HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM CONUNDRUM?

>> YES, AND, RIGHT NOW, IT'S A QUESTION OF THE PRICE, BUT YES, IF IRAN, IF THEY GOT RID OF THEIR STOCKPILES OF 20%, IS NOT TECHNICALLY HARD TO DO, IT'S A POLITICAL DECISION ON BOTH SIDES, WHETHER THEY DOWN BLEND IT OR SEND IT OUT, I MEAN IT'S VERY PLAUSIBLE BUT, BASICALLY IT COMES DOWN TO WHAT PRICE IS THE U. S. WILLING TO PAY FOR THIS, SOMETHING THAT DIDN'T EXIST, YOU KNOW, PRIOR TO 2020, SO THIS IS A NEWER DEVELOPMENT, AND I THINK IRAN IS WILLING TO DO IT, THEY ARE PROBABLY GOING TO CHARGE AN EXORBITANT PRICE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU SAID IT DOESN'T EXIST PRIOR TO 2020, THAT I ASSUME IS A REFERENCE TO TRUMP PULLING OUT OF THE JCPOA WHICH KEPT ENRICHMENT LOW?

>> YEAH, IT'S THAT AND IT WAS THE ASSASSINATION OF, SO THEY ACTUALLY STARTED DOING ENRICHMENT AFTER HIS ASSASSINATION, MANDATING 60% ENRICHMENT.

IT WAS FIRST THE JCPOA AND THEN THE ASSASSINATION BY ISRAEL THAT LED TO 60%.

THEY ARE BOTH CONNECTED BUT THAT WAS THE ACTUAL TIPPING POINT.

>> YOU ARE REFERRING TO ONE OF THE SENIOR NUCLEAR SCIENTIST WHO WAS ASSASSINATED?

>> THE MOST SENIOR.

>> EXACTLY.

SO, WHEN YOU WERE IN THE ROOM, AND THERE WERE NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON, WHAT DID YOU SEE GOING ON, IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEN WE WILL GO BACK TO THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

>> SURE, SO, MY INVOLVEMENT WAS LIMITED JUST TO THE SPRING OF 2025 BUT WE WERE IN SOME WAYS FOLLOWING THE SAME FORMAT THAT THE BIDEN TEAM DID WHICH WAS OMAN WAS THE MEDIATOR, YOU WOULD SIT IN THESE DIFFERENT ROOMS, THE ONLY CONTACT THAT WOULD HAPPEN WOULD BE YOU KNOW, STEVE WITKOFF WOULD SIT IN THE ROOM WITH THE IRANIAN FOR MINISTER AND THE MONIES WOULD SHUTTLE BACK AND FORTH.

IT'S NOT A WAY OF DOING DIPLOMACY BUT THAT'S WHAT IRAN HAD INSISTED ON EVER SINCE THE U. S. WITHDREW FROM JCPOA IN 2018.

>> WHEN YOU SAY, GOING TO WAR, YOU PREDICTED THE WAYS THAT IRAN WOULD RESPOND JUST GO THROUGH THIS AND WHY YOU THINK THE UNITED STATES AND TAKE MORE SERIOUSLY THE ISSUE OF CLOSING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

I'M ASKING WHETHER YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT WAS REALLY GIVEN, WAS TOLD, WHAT REALLY COULD HAPPEN?

>> YEAH, SO, WHEN I THOUGHT COULD HAPPEN WAS THAT, INSTEAD OF STRIKING JUST U. S. AND ISRAELI TARGETS THAT IRAN WOULD GO AFTER THE GOLF ENERGY AND TRY TO SHUT DOWN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

AND THE RATIONALE FOR THAT IS IT'S MUCH EASIER TO DO, MUCH CLOSER, AND TWO, IT PUTS A PRICE ON THE U. S. THAT WE WOULDN'T OTHERWISE FEEL, SO, TO ME, IT SEEMED, AND TO BE FRANK, IRAN SAID THEY WERE GOING TO DO THIS.

SO IT WASN'T THAT HARD TO PREDICT.

I THINK IT JUST MAY BE HAPPENS QUICKER THAN EVERYONE EXPECTED.

I DO THINK THE PRESIDENT WAS GIVEN THIS ADVICE.

I THINK, THERE'S BEEN NUMEROUS REPORTS AND VARIOUS OUTLETS SAID THAT YOU KNOW, THERE WERE THESE POSSIBLE OUTCOMES AND I THINK ULTIMATELY HE CHOSE TO BELIEVE IT BECAUSE HE FELT COMING AFTER THE MADURO STRIKE THAT HE WAS, YOU KNOW, INVINCIBLE, SO, I THINK HE WAS TOLD THAT HE CHOSE NOT TO LISTEN.

>> EVEN IN YOUR OWN FOREIGN AFFAIRS PIECE YOU DO A LITTLE BIT OF SELF-CRITICISM.

YOU SAY AMERICAN ANALYST, YOURSELF INCLUDED, PROBABLY OVERESTIMATED IRAN'S FRAGILITY BEFORE THE WAR.

AND I'M JUST GOING TO SAY, EVERYBODY THOUGHT, WITH REASON, THAT THE ATTACKS BY ISRAEL ON YOU KNOW, ON IRAN, THE ATTACKS BY THE UNITED STATES, ALSO, THE ATTACKS BY ISRAEL ON ALL OF IRAN'S PROXIES, WOULD HAVE WEAKENED IT TO A POINT THAT IT COULDN'T HAVE KEPT UP THE FIGHT LIKE THIS.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOU MISREAD IT?

>> WELL, I'VE WORKED ON IRAN FOR 18 YEARS IN THE U. S. GOVERNMENT, AND I'M ROUTINELY AMAZED AT HOW OFTEN BOTH MYSELF AND THE GOVERNMENT GETS BIG THINGS WRONG, YOU KNOW, ON IRAN BECAUSE IT'S COMPLICATED, AND IT'S A VERY DYNAMIC CULTURE AND SOCIETY IN HISTORY, SO WE CONTINUALLY GET THINGS WRONG.

NO ONE WOULD HAVE REALLY SEEN, YOU KNOW, WINNING THE PRESIDENCY.

TIME AND TIME AGAIN, WHERE YOU WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM WAS SOMETHING AND THE EXACT OPPOSITE HAPPENED.

SO, SO THAT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

IN THIS CASE, AND WHEN JANUARY HAPPENED AND IT WAS SO BRUTAL, PROBABLY LIKE MANY PEOPLE, MAYBE YOURSELF THOUGHT, THIS IS JUST UNSUSTAINABLE, THIS CAN'T GO ON ANY LONGER.

THIS EXPERIMENT HAS FAILED.

AND THERE'S A PART OF ME THAT STILL FEELS THAT'S TRUE, BUT THEY CLEARLY HAVE BEEN WILLING TO KILL THEIR OWN PEOPLE TO STAY IN POWER AND THEY ARE WILLING TO TAKE EXTRAORDINARY MILITARY RISKS TO SURVIVE THIS ATTACK.

IN SOME WAYS, THEY ARE MUCH MORE RESILIENT THAN I THINK I ANTICIPATED AND ITS IRAN, WHERE THE U. S. HAS HAD NO RELATIONS FOR A LONG TIME AND WE DON'T HAVE A GOOD VIEW OF WHAT IS HAPPENING.

>> AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS COMPLICATING FACTOR I GUESS, IT'S NOT JUST THE U. S. WAR, IT'S THE U. S. AND ISRAEL WAR, AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK BECAUSE ISRAEL OBVIOUSLY IN TERMS OF THE PRIME MINISTER, BASICALLY, I THINK, BELIEVES THAT THIS CONSTANT WAR FOOTING, WHICH HE'S BEEN ON, AT LEAST, SINCE OCTOBER 7, IS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP ISRAEL SAFE AND SECURE.

DO YOU THINK THAT BENJAMIN NETANYAHU HAS EMERGED A WINNER OUT OF THIS?

>> YEAH, THAT'S A HARD QUESTION.

MY INCLINATION IS PROBABLY, NO, I THINK WHAT KIND OF SEEMS TO BE COMING OUT OF THESE PEACE TALKS OR WHATEVER THESE SORT OF TALKS ARE IN ISLAMABAD, IS BASICALLY WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR IS THE SECURITY GUARANTEE THAT YOU REFER TO BASICALLY THE U. S. AND ISRAEL WON'T ATTACK AGAIN.

IF THAT HAPPENS, THEN I THINK IT'S A PRETTY BIG BLOW TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT WHICH HAD ACTION COMING OUT OF THE OCTOBER ATTACK.

THAT, I THINK ULTIMATELY, IS SOMETHING PROBABLY IT'S NOT FULLY UNDERSTOOD IN ISRAEL OR THEY THINK THEY CAN OVERRIDE TRUMP BUT IF THAT HOLDS, THAT'S A PRETTY BIG LOSS FOR ISRAEL AND NETANYAHU IN PARTICULAR.

>> GOING BACK TO YOUR SERVICE FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THEY TRIED TO GET IRAN BACK INTO SOME SORT OF JCPOA 2.

0.

IT DIDN'T WORK.

TELL US WHY IT DIDN'T WORK?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THE U. S. , I THINK THERE WERE A COUPLE OF THINGS, WE PROBABLY MOVED A LITTLE TOO SLOW ON THE FRONT END, IT JUST TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO GET THE HOUSE IN ORDER, THAT DIDN'T COINCIDE WITH THE OTHER WINDOW.

THEY WERE ENTERING THEIR OWN ELECTORAL SEASON AND IT WASN'T POSSIBLE FOR HIM TO FINISH THE DEAL AND THEY DIDN'T WANT HIM TO GET CREDIT, SO AT THAT POINT, WE EXTENDED INTO YOU KNOW, THE SECOND PART OF THE YEAR AND BASICALLY IT JUST TOOK FOREVER TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE WERE ALREADY TO GO, AND BASICALLY, JUST THE TIMING NEVER ALIGNED, AND I DO THINK THERE WERE MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES FOR IRAN TO GO BACK IN AND ULTIMATELY THEY CHOSE TO NOT DO IT AND BY THE TIME THEY WERE READY TO GO BACK IN, THE TIME IT PASSED.

>> HOW IMPORTANT WAS THE DEMAND THAT THE U. S. BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PROMISE THAT NO FUTURE PRESIDENT WOULD PULL OUT?

>> WELL, WE WERE PRETTY CLEAR WITH THEM FROM THE BEGINNING THAT WE CAN'T DO THAT.

YOU CANNOT GUARANTEE WHAT A FUTURE ADMINISTRATION COULD DO.

BUT WE WERE WILLING TO GUARANTEE WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS COMMITTED TO.

SO THAT'S ALL YOU CAN DO.

SO THAT COULD HAVE BEEN POTENTIALLY UP TO EIGHT YEARS AND THAT'S WHAT WE TOLD HIM.

SO I THINK EVENTUALLY THEY ACCEPTED IT BUT IT WAS TOO LATE.

WE WERE IN A DIFFERENT WORLD.

>> WE ARE IN A MUCH DIFFERENT WORLD RIGHT NOW.

I RECENTLY SPOKE TO THE FORMER ARMY COMMANDER, GENERAL STANLEY McCHRYSTAL, A VERY SENIOR COMMANDER IN IRAQ AND HE SAID A LOT OF THINGS INCLUDING THIS, I THINK WE ARE BECOMING HATED IN THE WORLD, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WILL TAKE DECADES TO FIX.

AND ONCE WE ARE NOT THE GOOD GUYS, WHO ARE WE?

IN THERE SO MANY LIMITS TO OUR MILITARY CAPABILITY NOW BECAUSE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EVEN JUST A GENERATION AGO WHEN WE HAD HIGH TECH STAFF AT OUR POTENTIAL ENEMIES DIDN'T, NOWADAYS, EVERYBODY HAS IT HEARD SOME PEOPLE HAVE LESS EXPENSIVE VERSIONS OF IT, BUT THEY HAVE IT.

REFLECT ON THAT?

>> I MEAN, HE'S RIGHT, RIGHT?

THESE $30,000 DRONES ARE AS EFFECTIVE AS OUR $1.

1 MILLION INTERCEPTORS.

THE ASYMMETRIC WAR IRAN IS FIGHTING NOW IS VERY, IT MATCHES US, IN WAYS, SO IRAN DOESN'T NEED TO WIN A WAR TO WIN, THEY JUST NEED TO SURVIVE AND WE HAVE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TYPES OF WARFARE, AND I THINK YOU FEEL IT IN THIS CASE, AND IRAN.

IT'S A DIFFERENT WORLD.

>> ON THIS ISSUE OF WE ARE BECOMING HATED IN THE WORLD, THE UNITED STATES, AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS WORKED IN DIPLOMACY FOR THE U. S. FOR 20 YEARS OR MORE, ACROSS BOTH PARTIES, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT POSSIBILITY?

>> YEAH, LOOK, I HOPE HE'S WRONG AND I THINK AMERICA HAS A LOT TO OFFER, YOU KNOW, BUT, I RECOGNIZE AT THE SAME TIME OUR ACTIONS ARE MAKING IT HARDER FOR OUR ALLIES TO STAY ON BOARD, YOU KNOW, ESPECIALLY THREATENING NATO AND OTHER THINGS, AND OUR VALUES, WHICH HAVE ALWAYS HAD FLAWS AND PROBLEMS, WE DON'T HAVE OUR BEST FOOT FORWARD AS A COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

I THINK THAT MAKES IT HARDER AND I THINK IT HURTS OUR STANDING AROUND THE WORLD.

I HOPE IT'S NOT PERMANENT I HOPE THESE ARE TEMPORARY MEASURES BUT YES, IT'S HURTING OUR STANDING.

>> NATE SWANSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

> >> WE TURN NOW TO ANOTHER NATION FEELING THE BRUNT OF TRUMP'S FOREIGN-POLICY OR ECONOMIC WARFARE, AND THAT IS CUBA.

THE UNITED STATES HAS ALSO BLOCKADED THIS ISLAND NATION, PREVENTING ANY OIL FROM GETTING THERE, FOR NEARLY 4 MONTHS NOW.

AND IT'S IN THE GRIP OF AN ESCALATING HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, WITH FUEL SHORTAGES CAUSING WIDESPREAD BLACKOUTS, HOSPITALS ARE ON THEIR KNEES, AND WELL TRUMP'S ATTENTION IS MAINLY FOCUSED ON IRAN, FEARS MOUNT THAT THE PRESIDENT COULD FOLLOW THROUGH ON HIS THREATS AND CUBA IS QUOTED NEXT, THE CUBAN PRESIDENT SAID HIS COUNTRY IS PREPARED TO FIGHT BACK.

OR MAYBE TRUMP WILL CHOOSE A DIFFERENT PATH TO REGIME CHANGE.

THIS WEEK THERE WAS CONFIRMATION THERE HAVE BEEN DIPLOMATIC TALKS IN NEVADA WITH AMERICAN OFFICIALS.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS WELL VERSED IN THESE TYPES OF DISCUSSIONS, THE FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL RICARDO ZUNIGA, LED THE NEGOTIATIONS TO NORMALIZE RELATIONS UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA, AND HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D. C. WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> SO LET ME FIRST ASK YOU, SINCE THERE'S CONFIRMATION THAT THERE HAVE BEEN TALKS, DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE TALKS, WHO IS TALKING TO WHO, BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CUBA?

>> I DON'T, ON THE U. S. SIDE, AND THAT'S PROBABLY A GOOD THING.

THAT MEANS THEY ARE MAINTAINING A DISCIPLINED INFORMATION APPROACH TO THIS.

ON THE CUBAN SIDE THEY SAID IT WAS A VICE MINISTER LEVEL.

I SUSPECT IT WAS PROBABLY SOMEONE LIKE JOSE, OR A VICE MINISTER WHO IS VERY SKILLED AND KNOWS THE UNITED STATES WELL.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY ARE TRYING TO NEGOTIATE OR TALK ABOUT RIGHT NOW?

DO YOU THINK THE WHOLE, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IS CUBA GOING TO BE VENEZUELA, IS IT GOING TO BE IRAN, HOW DO YOU THINK THE LESSONS LEARNED OVER THESE PAST FEW MONTHS OF THE U. S. AT WAR, WILL TRANSLATE INTO CUBA POLICY?

>> WELL, I HOPE NEITHER ONE IS TAKING THE LESSON FOR CUBA BECAUSE IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA, IT'S QUITE A DIFFERENT SCENARIO THAN WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN CUBA.

CUBA IS A CONSOLIDATED 67-YEAR- OLD AUTHORITARIAN REGIME, IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA, THERE WAS FRAGMENTATION AT THE TOP.

SO, AND IT WAS MUCH EASIER TO MANAGE IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA, AND IN THE CASE OF IRAN, I THINK WHAT WE SEE IS THE OPTION FOR WAR, IRAN IS A MUCH MORE CAPABLE MILITARY ADVERSARY, IN THE CASE OF CUBA, I THINK WHAT YOU HAVE IS AN ENTRENCHED GOVERNMENT THAT'S BEEN IN PLACE FOR A LONG TIME.

A POPULATION THAT DESIRES CHANGE BUT THE QUESTION IS, HOW DO YOU GET THERE?

>> LET'S TAKE IT BIT BY BIT, THEN.

A SENIOR OFFICIAL HAS MET SEPARATELY AND WE'VE SEEN REPORTING ABOUT THIS, WITH RAUL CASTRO'S GRANDSON, SO RAUL CASTRO WAS PRESIDENT THAT AFTER HIS BROTHER FIDEL CASTRO, YOU KNOW, GAVE UP THE PRESIDENCY, NOW THERE'S ANOTHER PRESIDENT.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE U. S. GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL TALKING TO A NON-GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL THERE, BUT A CASTRO AND A CASTRO GRANDSON?

>> SO, OBVIOUSLY CASTRO, ROLLED CASTRO, HE HAS A HISTORY GOING BACK 67 YEARS IN POWER.

BUT HIS GRANDSON, DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME STATURE THAT RAUL CASTRO DOES, NOR IS HE PART OF THE INNER CORE OF POWER.

IN CUBA YOU HAVE A CONSORTIUM OF LEADERS.

IT'S NOT A SINGLE ONE LIKE YOU HAD UNDER FIDEL CASTRO.

SO, WHEN YOU ARE NEGOTIATING, YOU REALLY HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT THE LEADERSHIP KOEBEL, A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL IN CUBA NOW IS UNLIKELY TO HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO TAKE SUCH DRAMATIC DECISIONS AS THE ONES THAT ARE BEING PRESSED BY THE UNITED STATES.

>> QUICKLY, YOU KNOW, IT'S CLEAR WHAT THE LEADERSHIP IS, IN VENEZUELA, IT'S BASICALLY UNDER AMERICAN PROTECTIVE.

DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS CARRYING OUT THE WISHES OF THE UNITED STATES.

IN IRAN, PEOPLE AREN'T SURE WHO EXACTLY THE LEADERSHIP IS, AND IN CUBA, YOU SAY THERE IS A CLEAR, THERE'S A CLEAR LEADERSHIP.

SO, WE HEAR THAT THE UNITED STATES IS BOTH PREPARING FOR MILITARY ACTION AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, PUTTING THE OPTIONS DOWN BUT ALSO SEEKING TO CONVINCE CUBANS TO YOU KNOW IMPLEMENT ALL SORTS OF ECONOMIC CHANGES AND MAYBE POLITICAL CHANGES TO THE U. S. STANDARDS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ?

>> SO, THIS IS A HARD THING TO DO.

I DON'T WANT TO DIMINISH THE TASK ON THE U. S. SIDE WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY TO CONVINCE A GOVERNMENT THAT'S BEEN IN PLACE FOR 67 YEARS, TO TO STOP THE MODEL.

IT'S A MODEL THAT HAS FAILED.

BUT THEY'VE HUNG ONTO POWER AND THEY BEEN ABLE TO HANG ONTO POWER BEYOND THE PERIOD THAT MOST EXPECTED THEM TO.

WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS OUTLAST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHEN THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IS THAT THEIR MODEL IS UNSUSTAINABLE AT THIS STAGE.

AND THE DIFFICULTY OF GETTING THEM TO MOVE OFF OF THAT, WHEN THEY BELIEVE ESSENTIALLY THAT THEY ARE EITHER IN POWER OR IN PRISON OR POTENTIALLY DEAD.

>> YEAH, NOW, YOU'VE EXPERIENCED ALL OF THIS BECAUSE OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION AND THE NEGOTIATION THAT YOU LEAD TOWARDS NORMALIZATION.

BUT, WHAT DID IT TAKE FOR CUBA TO I DON'T KNOW, CHANGE A BIT, ACCORDING TO U. S. WISHES UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?

>> SO, UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, THERE WAS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS WAS A GOVERNMENT THAT YOU WERE GOING TO CHARM INTO CHANGING OR BULLY INTO CHANGING AND WE ARE SEEING THAT NOW.

WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO DO, IS OUTLAST THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND CONTINUE TO REMAIN IN CONTROL IN CUBA.

AGAIN, THE REAL PROBLEM IS THAT THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT TIME THEN UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WHEN THE ATTEMPT HAD BEEN TO PRESSURE THEM BY ESSENTIALLY MAKING CONDITIONS BETTER FOR THE POPULATION SO THERE WOULD BE INCREASING DEMAND FOR CHANGE.

THAT'S NO LONGER REALLY A VIABLE OPTION IN TERMS OF THE TIME INVOLVED BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS HAVE GOTTEN SO MUCH WORSE IN CUBA.

>> THE ECONOMIC AND HUMANITARIAN CONDITIONS?

>> YEAH.

>> IF PEOPLE ARE HOPING LIKE THEY HOPED IN IRAN THAT SOMEHOW THERE WOULD BE A MASS UPRISING TO TOPPLE THE REGIME.

IN IRAN IT WAS BRUTALLY CRUSHED.

WHAT CUBANS --WOULD CUBANS RISE UP TO TRY TO TOPPLE THE GOVERNMENT?

IS IT A DIFFERENT KIND OF INCULCATION OF VALUES OR PRINCIPLES THERE?

>> THE THING IS THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT IS IN DIRE STRAITS, BUT THEY HAVE MANAGED TO MAINTAIN THEIR VERY STRONG REPRESSIVE APPARATUS AND NOBODY WANTS TO BE THEIR LAST VICTIM.

THEY BELIEVE THAT CHANGE IS POSSIBLE OR MIGHT BE POSSIBLE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THE ONES WHO LOSE THEIR LIFE OR LOSE THEIR LIBERTY AT THE VERY END OF THIS CYCLE.

THERE IS AN EXHAUSTION BUT ALSO A BELIEF THAT CHANGE HAS TO COME BECAUSE CONDITIONS HAVE GOTTEN SO BAD FOR THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT.

SO, UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN BEFORE IS THE USE A RELIEF VALVE, WHICH HAS BEEN MASS MIGRATION IN THE PAST AND CUBA IS DIFFERENT, YOU HEAR ABOUT MASS EXECUTIONS IN IRAN, THAT HASN'T HAPPENED IN A LONG TIME IN CUBA BUT MASS ARRESTS ARE ABSOLUTELY A PART OF WHAT THEY DO.

I THINK THE ONE THEORY HAS BEEN THAT IF YOU PUSHED THE CONDITIONS HARD ENOUGH IN CUBA THAT INEVITABLY, YOU WOULD GET TO A POINT WHERE YOU HAD AN UPRISING.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN ANY INDICATION OF THAT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, WHAT YOU THINK RICARDO ZUNIGA IS THE BOTTOM LINE FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

FIRST, LISTEN TO SOMETHING TRUMP HIMSELF HAS SAID TO CUBANS, TAKE A LISTEN.

>> VERY SOON THIS GREAT STRENGTH WILL ALSO BRING ABOUT A DAY, 70 YEARS IN WAITING, IT'S CALLED A NEW DAWN FOR CUBA, WE ARE GOING TO HELP THEM OUT WITH CUBA.

WE HAVE A LOT OF GREAT CUBAN- AMERICANS , NOT TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS AUDIENCE, I DON'T THINK, BUT YOU GO TO MIAMI, WE HAVE PEOPLE, CUBAN-AMERICANS, THAT WERE BRUTALLY TREATED, WHOSE FAMILIES WERE KILLED AND BRUTALIZED AND NOW, WATCH WHAT HAPPENS .

>> WHETHER I FREE IT, TAKE IT, I CAN DO ANYTHING I WANT WITH IT, YOU WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH?

THEY ARE A WEEKEND NATION.

>> SO THOSE ARE TWO PARTS OF TWO DIFFERENT CONVERSATIONS, WHICH WE JUST SHOW TOGETHER, TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF WHAT HE'S BEEN SAYING.

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE BOTTOM LINE, WHAT ACTUALLY DOES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WANT?

>> I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ONCE AND WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION AS A WHOLE WANTS.

AS A WHOLE, THEY WANT A VERY TRADITIONAL GOAL OF THE UNITED STATES WHICH IS A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY AND AN OPENING OF THE ECONOMY AND THE REALIGNMENT BY CUBA.

I THINK WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS IS TO WIN, AND I DON'T THINK CUBA HAS BEEN ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT TO HIM AS AN OBJECTIVE COMPARED TO VENEZUELA WHERE HE WAS FASCINATED BY THE OIL SITUATION.

HE DOESN'T SEE THE SAME KIND OF ADVANTAGE IN CUBA, SO FOR HIM, ANYTHING HE CAN CALL A VICTORY IS SUFFICIENT.

WHAT HIS SUPPORTERS IN THE UNITED STATES MIGHT FEEL IS THAT SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE VENEZUELA WOULD BE INSUFFICIENT.

>> THAT'S IMPORTANT, BECAUSE YOU KNOW, YOU JUST MENTION WHAT MANY SUPPORTERS WANT MAY BE THE GREATER ADMINISTRATION, THEY WANT A TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU SEE THE PATH TOWARD DEMOCRACY NOW?

>> THERE IS A PATH TO DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA BUT THERE WERE OF COURSE OPPOSITION PARTIES IN PLACE, THERE WAS A TRADITION OF DEMOCRACY IN VENEZUELA AND THERE'S A PRIVATE SECTOR, THERE'S A LOT OF CONDITIONS THAT EXIST IN VENEZUELA THAT DON'T EXIST IN CUBA.

AND WE ARE SEEING AN EXTENSION OF THE REGIME IN VENEZUELA RIGHT NOW, IN COLLABORATION WITH THE UNITED STATES.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT RAISE CONCERNS ABOUT HOW LONG IT'LL BE BEFORE YOU HAVE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS THERE AND IN CUBA, YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE THAT POSSIBILITY, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY DISCUSSION AT THIS POINT, OF A TIME FOR A TRANSITION.

>> QUICKLY, YOU KNOW THERE ARE MANY VENEZUELANS, MAYBE THE MAJORITY BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF VENEZUELANS, WHO ARE REALLY PLEASED THAT MADURO WAS, YOU KNOW, TAKEN OUT, AND THERE MIGHT BE SOME CHANCE TOWARDS A FREER AND A RICHER VENEZUELA, SO MANY HAVE BEEN IMPOVERISHED OVER POLICIES OF THE REGIME THERE.

AND OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE SO MANY IN CUBA WHO WANT TO SEE A CHANGE OF REGIME AND THERE ARE MANY CUBAN-AMERICANS WHO DO AS WELL.

THERE HAVE BEEN REAL CHANGES IN VENEZUELA, RIGHT?

IS THE IDEA OF BRINGING DIFFERENT YOU KNOW, FOREIGN COMPANIES AND, MAYBE FREEING SOME OF THE POLITICAL PRISONERS AND GETTING RID OF QUITE A FEW, KELSEY REGAN'S HAS PURGED MANY OF THE HENCHMEN FROM MADURO.

DO YOU SEE THAT, IS THAT HAPPENING IN A WAY THAT IS POSITIVE, OR IS A WAY OF HER SETTING UP HER OWN POWER BASE?

>> WELL, IT'S CLEARLY SETTING UP HER OWN POWER BASE, WHETHER THAT'S A PATH TO DEMOCRACY, I THINK THAT'S GENERATING SOME UNEASE INCLUDING PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY HAPPY TO SEE CHANGE IN VENEZUELA, AS YOU SAID.

I THINK THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE HAPPY TO SEE MADURO LEAVE, AND FACE ACCOUNTABILITY IN THE UNITED STATES BUT A LOT OF THOSE SAME PEOPLE ARE VERY CONCERNED THAT WE ARE SEEING A CONTINUATION OF THE GOVERNMENT, IN PART, BECAUSE THE UNITED STATES VERY QUICKLY SORT OF GAVE UP THE 2024 ELECTION AND, I THINK THERE'S ALSO SOME CONCERN AMONG THOSE SAME PEOPLE THAT THE PACE TOWARDS THE DEMOCRATIC CHANGE HAS BEEN REALLY TO THE EFFORT, WE'VE SEEN SOME IMPROVED CONDITIONS IN VENEZUELA, ESPECIALLY ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITIES AND WE HOPE THIS WILL CONTINUE BUT THERE ARE STILL 500 POLITICAL PRISONERS IN PLACE AND WITH THIS LEVEL OF U. S. INFLUENCE, WHY HAVEN'T THE PRISONERS BEEN FREED AND THAT'S WHAT GENERATES CONCERN ALSO IN THE CASE OF CUBA AND SKEPTICISM ABOUT KIND OF THE PACE OF IT.

>> AND JUST ONE BROADER QUESTION.

THERE ARE CRITICS OF THE VENEZUELA MODEL , INCLUDING INSIDE VENEZUELA RIGHT NOW WHO SAY A LOT OF WHAT DELCY RODRIGUEZ IS DOING AND WHAT THE UNITED STATES IS ASKING OF HER, COULD HAVE BEEN DONE UNDER MADURO BECAUSE IF YOU REMEMBER, THERE WERE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN HIM AND TRUMP'S EMISSARY AND APPARENTLY HE WAS WILLING TO DO A LOAD OF THINGS THAT THE U. S. WANTED INCLUDING KICKING OUT THE CHINESE, THE IRANIANS, RELEASING POLITICAL PRISONERS, BRINGING IN U. S. COMPANIES AND SHARING RESOURCES, ET CETERA.

THEY SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT IRAN, A LOT OF WHAT TRUMP IS ASKING FOR NOW WAS ON THE TABLE DURING OR JUST BEFORE THE MILITARY ACTION, DURING THE NEGOTIATIONS.

CAN YOU JUST TELL ME WHETHER YOU THINK THAT IS LEGITIMATE, OR WERE THESE WARS NECESSARY AND DO YOU THINK THEY COULD JUSTIFY WAR AGAINST CUBA TO GET WHAT THEY WANT?

>> LOOK, I THINK THAT'S AN IMPORTANT OBSERVATION.

I THINK A LOT OF OBSERVERS HAVE SAID THAT MUCH OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION --YES, I BELIEVE IN PART, IT'S THAT THE PRESIDENT ONE OF THE EMBLEMATIC SUCCESS OF A MILITARY ASSAULT, WHICH WORKED IN THE CASE OF VENEZUELA BECAUSE OF SUPERB TACTICAL FORCES AND IT DIDN'T WORK IN THE CASE OF IRAN BECAUSE IT'S A TOUGHER ADVERSARY.

NOW, IN THE CASE OF CUBA, WHAT CONCERNS ME IS WHAT YOU HAVE THERE IS A WEAK COUNTRY, MILITARILY, BUT, IF YOU HAVE MILITARY ACTION THERE, WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT, IT'S A COUNTRY THAT'S ALREADY ON ITS KNEES ECONOMICALLY, A VERY BATTERED SOCIETY, AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU COULD OBTAIN THROUGH MILITARY ACTION THAT YOU PROBABLY COULDN'T OBTAIN THROUGH DIPLOMACY AND NEGOTIATION.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT HAVING LEVERAGE IS NOT IMPORTANT, IT IS, BUT THE FORMS OF LEVERAGE AND HOW THEY AFFECT THE POPULATION, IT'S OUR NEIGHBOR, IT SITS RIGHT NEXT TO THE UNITED STATES, IT'S NOT HALFWAY AROUND THE GLOBE, AND WE'VE ALREADY SEEN MASS MIGRATIONS FROM CUBA IN THE RECENT PAST.

1 MILLION PEOPLE LEFT IN THE FIRST HALF OF THIS DECADE.

YOU COULD SEE THIS AFFECTING NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES BUT CUBA'S NEIGHBORS IN MEXICO.

>> RICARDO SUNITA, THANK YOU SO MUCH AND I'M SO SORRY ABOUT THOSE TECHNICAL ISSUES YOU BEEN GRAPPLING WITH.

THANKS FOR YOUR EXPERTISE.

>> NOT AT ALL.

>> MORE THAN SIX YEARS LATER, PRESIDENT TRUMP CONTINUES TO CLAIM THAT HE WON THE 2020 ELECTION AND VOTING WAS RIGGED SINCE HIS SECOND INAUGURATION LAST YEAR, TRUMP HAS INTRODUCED EXECUTIVE ORDERS DESIGNED TO CHANGE ELECTION RULES, MOST RECENTLY, PROPOSING TO CREATE LISTS OF US CITIZENS WHO ARE ELIGIBLE TO VOTE AND INSTRUCTING U. S. POSTAL SERVICE TO SEND MAIL BALLOTS ONLY TO THOSE FEATURED ON THOSE LISTS.

WITH UPCOMING MIDTERM ELECTIONS, MANY ARE CONCERNED ABOUT ELECTION INTERFERENCE.

>> WE ARE THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT DOES MAIL IN VOTING, MAIL-IN VOTING MEANS MAIL IN SHEETING, I CALL IT MALE IN SHEETING, AND WE'VE GOT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

IT'S PART OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

AND I'M SUGGESTING STRONGLY TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, DON'T MAKE ANY DEAL ON ANYTHING THE MOST IMPORTANT THING WE CAN HAVE IS WHAT'S CALLED THE SAVE AMERICA ACT.

DON'T MAKE ANY DEAL ON ANYTHING UNLESS YOU INCLUDE VOTER ID, AND YOU HAVE TO BE A CITIZEN TO VOTE.

>> PROPUBLICA REPORTER JEN FIFIELD JOINS HARRY TO DISCUSS WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS COULD MEAN FOR VOTING ACCESS LATER THIS YEAR.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, YOU HAVE A RECENT PIECE OUT IN PROPUBLICA CALLED INSIDE TRUMP'S EFFORT TO TAKE OVER THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS.

YOU START WITH THIS MEETING BACK IN 2020 THAT INCLUDED THE ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM BAR AT THE TIME, WHAT HAPPENED THERE, WHY WAS IT SO PIVOTAL?

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

I THINK THE REASON WE CHOSE TO FOCUS ON THAT, AS YOU KNOW, THERE WERE A LOT OF CLAIMS COMING OUT IN 2020, AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR WAS FACING ALL OF THOSE.

TRUMP WAS TELLING HIM YOU NEED TO LOOK INTO THIS OR THIS, AND WHAT WE HEARD WAS HE STOOD UP TO TRUMP, EVENTUALLY AND HE RESIGNED.

BUT WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW WAS THERE WAS A BUNCH OF STAFF THAT CAME TOGETHER THAT TOLD HIM HOW TO STAND UP TO TRUMP, THAT TOLD HIM THE ELECTION WAS FAIR, THAT TOLD THEM THEY HAD RESEARCHED THIS.

SO WE WANTED TO LOOK AT THIS ONE KEY MEETING JUST BEFORE HE RESIGNED, WHERE HE MET WITH STAFF, CYBER SECURITY EXPERTS, TO TALK ABOUT THIS COUNTY IN MICHIGAN, THIS ONE CONTEST WHERE HE FELT LIKE THE ELECTION HAD BEEN RIGGED AGAINST THEM AND IT WAS A PIVOTAL MOMENT IN DECIDING THAT HE WAS GOING TO STAND UP AGAINST TRUMP, HE WENT AND HE SAID TO HIS DEPUTY AT THE TIME, I'M GOING TO, CAUSING MYSELF INTO THE WHITE HOUSE, AND EVERYONE IN THE ROOM REALIZED AT THAT MOMENT, THAT WAS THE END FOR HIS FEDERAL CAREER.

>> WOW.

YOU KNOW, YOUR INVESTIGATION TAKES A LOOK AT ALL OF WHAT WE ASSUME ARE THE GUARDRAILS THAT WERE PUT IN PLACE , AS A RESULT OF THE 2020 ELECTION.

WHAT DID YOU INVESTIGATE, WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> THE TEAM THAT CAME TOGETHER IN FRONT OF BAR, WE LOOKED AT THE CYBER SECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY WHICH IS A LONG WAY TO SAY THE GROUP THAT WAS PUT TOGETHER AFTER THE 2017 ELECTION TO PROTECT ELECTIONS BY LOOKING AT CYBER SECURITY THREATS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THIS HAS NEVER BEEN AN ORGANIZED EFFORT BEFORE 2017 AND SINCE THEN, IT'S BUILT UP INTO A VERY SOPHISTICATED MISSION.

NOW, THIS WAS THE GROUP THAT MET WITH BILL BARR AND WHEN TRUMP TOOK OFFICE, THIS WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TEAMS THAT HE DISMANTLED, YOU KNOW, HE BASICALLY, THERE WERE MORE THAN 30 PEOPLE WORKING ON THIS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND NOW, EVERYONE HAS BEEN REASSIGNED TO OTHER PROJECTS.

SO THERE'S NOT THAT NATIONAL LOOK AT ELECTIONS, CYBER SECURITY FROM WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AT THIS POINT.

THAT WAS ONE TEAM.

WE LOOKED AT OTHER TEAMS INCLUDING AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, THAT HAVE BEEN DISMANTLED, AND THOSE PEOPLE ARE NOW GONE AND NOT WATCHING OVER ELECTIONS.

>> HOW DID THIS AGENCY THAT HE CREATED, TURN OUT TO BE A TOP TARGET OF HIS.

IN A MEMO ISSUED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IN 2025, IT SAID CISA SUPPRESSED CONSERVATIVE --PLATFORMS TO FURTHER ITS PARTISAN MISSION, SIMILARLY, CISA DENIED THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLEN RECRUITING BY INAPPROPRIATELY AND CATEGORICALLY DISMISSING WIDESPREAD ELECTION MALFEASANCE AND SERIAL --SERIOUS VULNERABILITIES WITH VOTING MACHINES.

THIS WAS AN ORGANIZATION SET UP BY THE TRUTH --TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> AFTER JANUARY 6th HAPPENED, AND SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES BEGAN TO CENSOR INFORMATION ON THE INTERNET, CISA WOULD COMMUNICATE IF THERE WAS FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT ELECTIONS .

FOR SOME IN THE COUNTRY, THAT WAS SEEN AS CENSORSHIP, FIRST AMENDMENT PROBLEMS, SO TRUMP WHEN HE CAME AND HE SAID I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT OR SORRY, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID, I DON'T KNOW THAT HE SAID THAT HIMSELF.

SO THAT TEAM, WAS NOT ONLY DOING THAT, AND ACTUALLY HAD BACKED AWAY FROM THAT WORK AFTER GETTING BACKLASH ABOUT IT, SO, A FEW PEOPLE WERE LEFT WORKING ON THAT, BUT THIS IS 30 PEOPLE THAT WERE WORKING ON OTHER KEY PROJECTS LIKE CHECKING OUT VOTING MACHINES AND MAKING SURE THAT HACKING DOESN'T HAPPEN.

SO THEY WERE WORKING ON OTHER PROJECTS BUT NOW THEY ARE GONE.

>> YOU FOCUS ON THE COUPLE OF OTHER GROUPS, USE OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL'S ELECTION SECURITY GROUP AND THE FBI'S FOREIGN INFLUENCE TASK FORCE AND THE DOJ'S PUBLIC INTEGRITY SECTION , THESE AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, THESE HAVE BEEN CHANGED RADICALLY, IF THEY ARE STILL AROUND, EXPLAIN.

>> SO THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES WERE TAKING A LOOK AT ANY KIND OF THREATS FROM FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS LIKE CHINA, THAT MIGHT COME IN AS AN ELECTION APPROACHED OR DURING AN ELECTION IN WHICH THEY COULD THEN RESPOND QUICKLY FROM A FEDERAL AGENCY, IN A WAY THAT LOCAL GOVERNMENTS CAN'T DO IF THEY SEE SOMEONE TRYING TO HACK INTO THEIR SYSTEM, THEY HAVE THAT BROAD LOOK AT ALL OF THE THREATS IN ALL THE WAYS PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO INFLUENCE OUR ELECTIONS AND THEY COULD RESPOND QUICKLY AND TRY TO INVESTIGATE.

ALL OF THAT HAS NOW AT LEAST CHANGED OR A LOT OF IT HAS BEEN DISMANTLED ACROSS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> YOU ALSO BRING LIGHT TO A GROUP OF POLITICAL APPOINTEES WHO STRUCTURALLY, WERE OPPOSED TO THE RESULTS OF THE 2020 ELECTION IN THE FIRST PLACE, RIGHT, AND WHERE ARE THEY NOW, THEY CALL THEMSELVES TEAM AMERICA, WHAT KIND OF POSITIONS ARE THE IN AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING?

>> WHAT WAS KEY TO US WAS LOOKING NOT JUST AT THE DISMANTLING, THAT'S BEEN IN THE MEDIA, A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE LEFT UNDER THE NEW PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS , THAT HAPPENS.

WE LOOKED AT THIS TEAM THAT HAS EMERGED WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, IT'S WORKING ACROSS GOVERNMENT SILOS TO TRY TO FULFILL TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS ON ELECTIONS.

SO THEY ARE LOOKING AT THINGS LIKE HOW TO SEE IF THERE'S NONCITIZENS ON THE VOTER ROLLS, TRUMP HAS CLAIMED THAT MILLIONS ARE VOTING IN ELECTIONS.

THERE'S NO PROOF THAT THAT'S TRUE BUT THIS TEAM IS FOCUSED ON TRYING TO SEIZE STATE VOTER ROLLS, FIND TOOLS TO SEARCH THOSE VOTER ROLLS, >> IS THIS BASICALLY A MERGER OR A TAKEOVER OF WHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S EFFORTS TO MAKE SURE THERE ARE FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS, BY PEOPLE WHO STRUCTURALLY FEEL LIKE WELL, THEY ARE KIND OF ELECTION DENIERS?

>> THERE'S TWO THINGS GOING ON.

ONE THAT IS THIS NEW PUSH FORWARD FOR THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS, AND THERE'S THIS OTHER CAMPAIGN GOING ON, TO REINVESTIGATE THE 2020 ELECTION AND PAST ELECTIONS.

WE RECENTLY SAW THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REQUEST BALLOTS FROM THE 2024 ELECTION THAT TRUMP WON IN MICHIGAN.

SO, THEY ARE DOING THESE TWO COMPARTMENTALIZED IDEAS WERE THERE LOOKING BACK AT THESE ELECTIONS AND TRYING TO YOU KNOW, FULFILL WHATEVER TRUMP MISSION IS IN FRONT OF THEM.

AND SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, THE WHITE HOUSE, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, THEY SAY THEY ARE DOING IT TO UPHOLD FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS BUT I THINK A LOT OF EXPERTS ARE WORRIED ABOUT THEIR IN GAME.

>> SO WHAT IS THE ENDGAME THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT?

>> THEY FEAR IF PEOPLE WITHIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ARE WORKING ON THIS, SAY THEY SEES VOTING MACHINES, THEY ALREADY DID IN PUERTO RICO, SAY THEY CONTINUE TO SEIZE THESE MACHINES AND THEY SAY THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE VOTING MACHINES, WE CAN'T USE THESE IN THE UPCOMING ELECTION.

STATES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS HAVE ULTIMATE AUTHORITIES OVER THERE ELECTIONS?

THAT'S WHAT COURTS HAVE DEFENDED.

THEY ARE WORRIED THAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC THEN, DOESN'T TRUST WHAT WE ARE USING TO CONDUCT OUR ELECTIONS GOING INTO THIS KEY MIDTERM.

>> YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT HAS ALSO CALLED ON THE MIDTERMS TO BE NATIONALIZED, I GUESS, EXPLAIN WHAT THAT MEANS, IN PRACTICE, AND WHAT IS THE RESPONSE FROM LOCAL ELECTION OFFICIALS?

>> AS I TALKED ABOUT, STATE AND LOCAL OFFICIALS ARE USED TO WORKING WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

THEY RUN ELECTIONS UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

THAT POWER IS WITH THE STATE.

THEY ARE USED TO WORKING WITH THE CYBER SECURITY AGENCY ON ELECTIONS AND NOW THEY'VE SEEN THIS TURN WHERE THEY'RE GETTING SUBPOENAS FOR THEIR VOTER INFORMATION OR THEY ARE GETTING THEIR BALLOTS SEIZED AND THEY FEEL LIKE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS AN ADVERSARY NOW.

AND THEY ARE KIND OF TRYING TO WARGAME OUT HOW TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> THERE'S ALSO BEEN THIS PUSH TO TRY TO GET VOTER ROLLS AND RE-EXAMINE THEM, AS YOU MENTIONED.

THE FBI, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, HAS SUBPOENAED ELECTION RECORDS ACROSS THE DATA IN DIFFERENT PLACES, THE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI SAID , ACCURATE, WELL- MAINTAINED VOTER ROLLS ARE A REQUISITE FOR THE ELECTION INTEGRITY THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD --DESERVE.

THAT SOUNDS REASONABLE, IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMETHING PEOPLE SHOULD WANT TO MAKE SURE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE VOTING OUR CITIZENS, RIGHT?

>> I AGREE, AND ALL THE COUNTY CLERKS AND STATE CLERKS WHO WORK ON ELECTIONS AGREE WITH THAT, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE NONCITIZENS VOTING, THAT DILUTES THE STRENGTH OF THE CITIZENS THAT VOTE BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IS THE TOOL THEY'VE CHOSEN TO USE SO FAR ON THIS MISSION PROPUBLICA HAS COVERED THIS, IT'S CALLED THE SAFE TOOL, IT'S INCORRECTLY IDENTIFYING PEOPLE AS NONCITIZENS WHO ARE ACTUALLY CITIZENS.

SO, YOU KNOW, IF THERE IS A TOOL THAT WORKS GREAT THAT IDENTIFIES ACTUAL NONCITIZENS ON THE VOTER ROLLS, WE WANT TO BE USING THAT BUT THAT'S NOT, SO FAR, WHAT'S HAPPENING.

>> THE PRESIDENT HIRED AN ATTORNEY AS IS DIRECTOR OF ELECTION SECURITY.

TELL US ABOUT OLSON AND HIS PAST ROLE IN CHALLENGING THE 2020 RESULTS?

>> KURT OLSON OCCURRED IN 2020 WHEN TRUMP WAS GETTING ALL OF THIS INFORMATION FROM LAWYERS, WHO FELT LIKE THERE WERE LEGAL STRATEGIES TO TRY TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION RESULTS IN HIS FAVOR.

NOW, HE'S BEEN APPOINTED INTO THE WHITE HOUSE AS A SPECIAL COUNSEL TO REINVESTIGATE 2020.

ONE OF THE ACTIONS THAT WE UNCOVERED IN OUR REPORTING WAS THAT , IN THE RECENT FBI RAID IN GEORGIA FOR THEIR 2020 BALLOTS, HE WAS HEAVILY INVOLVED AND WENT DOWN AND ATTEMPTED TO INFLUENCE THE U. S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE THERE, TO TRY TO GET A SEARCH WARRANT FOR THE BALLOTS AND WHEN A TOP OFFICIAL IN THE OFFICE WAS UNWILLING TO WRITE THE SORT OF MEMO THAT THEY ASKED FOR, THAT PERSON WAS THEN ASKED TO EITHER RETIRE OR RESIGN.

AND THAT PERSON DID RETIRE .

SO WE SAW A DIRECT INFLUENCE FROM THE WHITE HOUSE COMING THROUGH TO LAW ENFORCEMENT WHICH MANY PEOPLE, MANY EXPERTS TOLD US, WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IF TEAMS LIKE THE PUBLIC INTEGRITY SECTION WERE STILL AROUND IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

>> WHAT DID HE SAY OR DID HE RESPOND WHEN YOU ASKED HIM FOR COMMENT?

>> THE FBI RESPONDED AND SAID EVERYTHING THEY HAVE DONE HAS BEEN UNDER THE LAW, AND THEY ARE FOLLOWING ALL LAWS WHEN THEY ARE DOING THESE ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS REGARDING ELECTIONS.

>> TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT, EVERYTHING AROUND THE NEWS CYCLE THIS DAY IS ABOUT AI, DEEPFAKES AND DISINFORMATION.

AND I WONDER HEADING INTO THIS ELECTION AND FUTURE ONES, WHAT SAFEGUARDS, IF ANY, DO WE HAVE IN PLACE, TO TRY TO PREVENT THIS, AND IN INFLUENCE THEY MAY HAVE ON ELECTIONS?

>> IT'S ALL UP TO THE STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BEST SECURE THERE ELECTIONS.

I THINK WE ARE SEEING AN INCREASED MISSION ACROSS THE COUNTRY AS PEOPLE TRY TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GO ABOUT THIS ALONE.

THERE ARE NEW GROUPS EMERGING TO REPLACE WHAT CISA USED TO DO FOR CYBER SECURITY, SO THERE ARE EFFORTS UNDERWAY TO TRY TO ENSURE THAT WHATEVER COMES THIS NOVEMBER, THEY ARE READY.

>> THERE ALSO SEEMS TO BE A DIFFERENT TYPE OF KIND OF UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE COURTS SAY IN RESPONSE TO THE PRESIDENT'S EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND WHAT THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS ARE TRYING TO DO AND WHAT HIS ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO DO.

I GUESS IF YOU COULD, LAY OUT SOME OF THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS PUT OUT, WHEN IT COMES TO ELECTIONS, WITH THE COURTS HAVE SAID AND HOW THEY PUSHED BACK BUT SOME OF HIS POLITICAL APPOINTEES ARE DOING ANYWAY?

>> THE FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDER CAME OUT IN MARCH OF LAST YEAR.

THIS LOOKED AT TWO MAIN THINGS.

ONE WAS MAKING SURE THAT NONCITIZENS DON'T VOTE, BY TRYING TO CHANGE A FEDERAL FORM FOR REGISTERING TO VOTE, BY PUTTING SOMETHING ON THE FORM TO SAY, I'M GOING TO PROVE MY CITIZENSHIP NOW.

I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU DOCUMENTS TO PROVE THAT.

THAT HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN BY THE COURT SO FAR.

THE COURTS HAVE SAID YOU CANNOT CONTROL THAT PORTION OF ELECTIONS.

THIS IS NOT YOUR ROLE AS THE PRESIDENT, CONGRESS CAN PASS A LAW TO CHANGE THE FORM, TO MAKE IT SO WE PROVE OUR CITIZENSHIP.

RIGHT NOW, WE JUST HAVE TO ATTEST TO IT AND SAY, I AM A CITIZEN TO VOTE.

THAT IS ONE THING.

HE ALSO CHANGED BARCODES ON VOTING SYSTEMS SO YOU ARE ONLY VOTING ON A PAPER BALLOT THAT DOESN'T HAVE ANY KIND OF BARCODE ON YOUR VOTE, THERE ARE SOME SECURITY CONCERNS AROUND THAT, REAL SECURITY CONCERNS AND THERE'S ALSO SOME WIDE MISINFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THAT CAN LEAD TO.

AND SO, THE COURTS HAVE ALSO BLOCKED THAT PART.

NOW WE HAVE THIS NEW EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT JUST CAME OUT RECENTLY THAT SAYS, FOR MAIL-IN VOTING, THE U. S. POSTAL SERVICE IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO PUT TOGETHER VOTER LISTS FOR WHO IS ELIGIBLE TO CAST A MALE IN BALLOT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS DEFINITELY CONTROLLED BY THE STATES.

THEY ASKED VOTERS TO SEND IN A NOTICE THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO VOTE BY MAIL, A LOT OF THEM, AND ONCE THAT'S DECIDED, THEY ARE ON THE LIST.

WE ARE ALREADY SEEING CHALLENGES IN COURT.

>> WE'VE HAD AT LEAST A TRADITION IS NOT A SET OF NORMS THAT SAY LAW ENFORCEMENT DOESN'T COME NEAR THE POLES, THEY CANNOT BE AN INTIMIDATING FORCE.

WHAT HAPPENS IF THERE ARE PLACES WHERE I. C. E. OFFICERS ARE NEAR THE POLLING AREAS IN SPECIFIC COUNTIES OR JURISDICTIONS WHERE THEY THINK OKAY, THIS IS GOING TO BE A PLACE TO CATCH PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED BUT, DOES THAT CREATE ANY KIND OF ANOTHER UNINTENDED EFFECT?

>> IT DOES.

WE KNOW THAT FEDERAL LAW PROHIBITS LAW ENFORCEMENT FROM BEING AROUND POLLING PLACES.

WHAT WE SEE HERE IS THE ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD BLANCHE HAS SAID, HE DOESN'T SEE THE CONCERN OF HAVING I. C. E. AGENTS AROUND POLLING PLACES BECAUSE IF YOU ARE NOT A CITIZEN, YOU SHOULD BE VOTING SO WHY ARE YOU CONCERNED.

BUT, WE KNOW, THAT THERE'S AN INTIMIDATION FACTOR THAT COMES IN CERTAIN COMMUNITIES, SPECIFICALLY MINORITY COMMUNITIES THAT SEE LAW ENFORCEMENT AS A THREAT OR SOMETHING TO STAY AWAY FROM, THAT COULD VERY MUCH FACTOR INTO WHO SHOWS UP AT THE POLLS, SO WHAT WE ARE SEEING IS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, WORKING, TALKING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS, HOW DO WE RESPOND IF CERTAIN SCENARIOS LIKE THIS HAPPEN IN NOVEMBER.

AND WE WILL HAVE TO SEE HOW ALL OF THIS PLAYS OUT, BUT I THINK THERE IS REAL CONCERN ABOUT VOTER INTIMIDATION.

>> YOU KNOW, PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE, IF YOU CAN, FROM THE EXPERTS THAT YOU SPOKEN TO, WHO WATCH ELECTIONS.

A LOT OF TIMES, THE STRATEGY TO WINNING ELECTIONS IS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOUR TEAM COMES OUT TO VOTE AND THE OTHER TEAM HAS A HARD TIME GETTING THERE OR A HARD TIME GETTING THEIR VOTES COUNTED, HAVE YOU SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS ON A STRUCTURAL LEVEL FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OR ELSEWHERE, TO TRY TO CHANGE SO MANY ROLES IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME?

>> OF COURSE THERE WAS THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT IS IN PLACE FOR A REASON.

IF WE GO BACK IN HISTORY, THERE HAVE BEEN TIMES WHERE CERTAIN GROUPS HAVE BEEN DISENFRANCHISED SPECIFICALLY MINORITY VOTERS, IN DIFFERENT WAYS, WHEN IT WAS ALL IN PERSON VOTING.

THERE WERE ATTEMPTS TO SHIFT LOCATIONS THROUGHOUT YOUR AREA, TO MAKE SURE SOMEONE CAN'T VOTE, THERE'S GERRYMANDERING THAT HAPPENS.

THAT DILUTES VOTES.

SO THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN ATTEMPTS TO DO THIS.

AND I THINK THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM THAT, BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT DICTATING IT NOW.

YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO IS IN POWER, WHOSE NOT SAYING OKAY CONGRESS IS GOING TO DO THIS, THE STATE LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO SET YOUR LINES, THE LOCAL COUNTY IS GOING TO DECIDE WHERE YOU VOTE, IT'S COMING FROM THE TOP DOWN NOW.

>> PROPUBLICA REPORTER JEN FIFIELD, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> FINALLY, A NEW FORM OF GENE THERAPY IS BEING HELD AS LIFE-CHANGING AFTER SIX-YEAR- OLD SOPHIE STANFORD WHO SUFFER FROM A RARE GENETIC CONDITION CAUSING BLINDNESS HAS HAD HER SITE RESTORED IN LONDON AND IN A POSITIVE WEEK FOR MEDICAL DEVELOPING, AND EXPERIMENTAL CANCER VACCINE THAT USES MRNA TO TREAT PANCREATIC CANCER HAS SHOWN LASTING RESULTS.

THE FIVE-YEAR SURVIVAL RATE IS LESS THAN 10%, OVER 40% OF THOSE INVOLVED IN THE CLINICAL TRIAL WERE STILL ALIVE UP TO SIX YEARS LATER.

THAT IS GREAT NEWS.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

>> THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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